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Leonardo da Vinci via NBC Nightly News
Leonardo da Vinci's "Last Supper" is the best-known representation of this event.
By Owen Jarus
LiveScience
A newly deciphered Egyptian text, dating back almost 1,200 years, tells part of the crucifixion story of Jesus with apocryphal plot twists, some of which have never been seen before.
Written in the Coptic language, the ancient text tells of Pontius Pilate, the judge who authorized Jesus' crucifixion, having dinner with Jesus before his crucifixion and offering to sacrifice his own son in the place of Jesus. It also explains why Judas used a kiss, specifically, to betray Jesus — because Jesus had the ability to change shape, according to the text — and it puts the day of the arrest of Jesus on Tuesday evening rather than Thursday evening, something that contravenes the Easter timeline.
The discovery of the text doesn't mean these events happened, but rather that some people living at the time appear to have believed in them, said Roelof van den Broek of Utrecht University in the Netherlands, who published the translation in the book "Pseudo-Cyril of Jerusalem on the Life and the Passion of Christ" (Brill, 2013).
Copies of the text are found in two manuscripts, one in the Morgan Library and Museum in New York City and the other at the Museum of the University of Pennsylvania. Most of the translation comes from the New York text, because the relevant text in the Pennsylvania manuscript is mostly illegible. [Image Gallery: 2 Ancient Curses Deciphered]
PontiusPilate has dinner with Jesus
While apocryphal stories about Pilate are known from ancient times, van den Broek wrote in an email to LiveScience that he has never seen this one before, with Pilate offering to sacrifice his own son in the place of Jesus.
Courtesy of the Pierpont Morgan Library
A researcher has deciphered a 1,200-year-old Coptic text that tells part of the Passion (the Easter story) with apocryphal plot twists, some of which have never been seen before. Here, a cross decoration from the text, of which there are two copies, the best preserved in the Morgan Library and Museum in New York City.
"Without further ado, Pilate prepared a table and he ate with Jesus on the fifth day of the week. And Jesus blessed Pilate and his whole house," reads part of the text in translation. Pilate later tells Jesus, "well then, behold, the night has come, rise and withdraw, and when the morning comes and they accuse me because of you, I shall give them the only son I have so that they can kill him in your place." [Who Was Jesus, the Man?]
In the text, Jesus comforts him, saying, "Oh Pilate, you have been deemed worthy of a great grace because you have shown a good disposition to me." Jesus also showed Pilate that he can escape if he chose to. "Pilate, then, looked at Jesus and, behold, he became incorporeal: He did not see him for a long time ..." the text read.
Pilate and his wife both have visions that night that show an eagle (representing Jesus) being killed.
In the Coptic and Ethiopian churches, Pilate is regarded as a saint, which explains the sympathetic portrayal in the text, van den Broek writes.
The reason for Judas using a kiss
In the canonical Bible, the apostle Judas betrays Jesus in exchange for money by using a kiss to identify him leading to Jesus' arrest. This apocryphal tale explains that the reason Judas used a kiss, specifically, is because Jesus had the ability to change shape.
"Then the Jews said to Judas: How shall we arrest him (Jesus), for he does not have a single shape but his appearance changes. Sometimes he is ruddy, sometimes he is white, sometimes he is red, sometimes he is wheat coloured, sometimes he is pallid like ascetics, sometimes he is a youth, sometimes an old man ..." This leads Judas to suggest using a kiss as a means to identify him. If Judas had given the arresters a description of Jesus he could have changed shape. By kissing Jesus, Judas tells the people exactly who he is. [Religious Mysteries: 8 Alleged Relics of Jesus]
This understanding of Judas' kiss goes way back. "This explanation of Judas' kiss is first found in Origen (a theologian who lived A.D. 185-254)," van den Broek writes. In his work "Contra Celsum," the ancient writer Origen stated that "to those who saw him (Jesus) he did not appear alike to all."
Courtesy of the Pierpont Morgan Library
Part of the text from the manuscript holding the newly deciphered Passion story of Jesus. Found in Egypt in 1910 it was purchased, along with other manuscripts, by J.P. Morgan in 1911 and was later donated to the public.
St. Cyril impersonation
The text is written in the name of St. Cyril of Jerusalem who lived during the fourth century. In the story Cyril tells the Easter story as part of a homily (a type of sermon). A number of texts in ancient times claim to be homilies by St. Cyril, and they were probably not given by the saint in real life, van den Broek explained in his book.
Near the beginning of the text, Cyril, or the person writing in his name, claims that a book has been found in Jerusalem showing the writings of the apostles on the life and crucifixion of Jesus. "Listen to me, oh my honored children, and let me tell you something of what we found written in the house of Mary ..." reads part of the text.
Again, it's unlikely that such a book was found in real life. Van den Broek said that a claim like this would have been used by the writer "to enhance the credibility of the peculiar views and uncanonical facts he is about to present by ascribing them to an apostolic source," adding that examples of this plot device can be found "frequently" in Coptic literature.
Arrest on Tuesday
Van den Broek says that he is surprised that the writer of the text moved the date of Jesus' Last Supper, with the apostles, and arrest to Tuesday. In fact, in this text, Jesus' actual Last Supper appears to be with Pontius Pilate. In between his arrest and supper with Pilate, he is brought before Caiaphas and Herod.
In the canonical texts, the last supper and arrest of Jesus happens on Thursday evening, and present-day Christians mark this event with Maundy Thursday services. It "remains remarkable that Pseudo-Cyril relates the story of Jesus' arrest on Tuesday evening as if the canonical story about his arrest on Thursday evening (which was commemorated each year in the services of Holy Week) did not exist!" van den Broek wrote in the email.
A gift to a monastery ... and then to New York
About 1,200 years ago the New York text was in the library of the Monastery of St. Michael in the Egyptian desert near present-day al-Hamuli in the western part of the Faiyum. The text says, in translation, that it was a gift from "archpriest Father Paul," who, "has provided for this book by his own labors."
The monastery appears to have ceased operations around the early 10th century, and the text was rediscovered in the spring of 1910. In December 1911, it was purchased, along with other texts, by American financier J.P. Morgan. His collections would later be given to the public and are part of the present-day Morgan Library and Museum in New York City. The manuscript is currently displayed as part of the museum's exhibition "Treasures from the Vault" running through May 5.
Who believed it?
Van den Broek writes in the email that "in Egypt, the Bible had already become canonized in the fourth/fifthcentury, but apocryphal stories and books remained popular among the Egyptian Christians, especially among monks."
Whereas the people of the monastery would have believed the newly translated text, "in particular the more simple monks," he's not convinced that the writer of the text believed everything he was writing down, van den Broek said.
"I find it difficult to believe that he really did, but some details, for instance the meal with Jesus, he may have believed to have really happened," van den Broek writes. "The people of that time, even if they were well-educated, did not have a critical historical attitude. Miracles were quite possible, and why should an old story not be true?"
Follow LiveScience on Twitter @livescience, Facebook and Google+. Original article on LiveScience.com.
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Copyright 2012 LiveScience. All rights reserved.
Leave a Comment:
That would explain why Jesus looks caucasion in all those church paintings even though he was born (supposedly) in a land of brown skin people.
The traditional image of Christ is based on his assumed life situation of being a dog faced boy of European descent who never made it with the opposite sex even once.
People believe anything that is written, and the older it is the more they believe it!
You do know that Jesus was Jewish, not Arabic, right?
Reptilian
The writings also suggest humans are capable of believing fiction and morph it with reality, then accept it as so.
As little toddlers we make-up imaginary friends even as our parents tell us Santa Claus is real...Bill O'Rilly of Fax News goes berserk at the end of every year proclaiming we are wicked if we choose not to let American children accept the said Santa, is not real. So over the centuries Christians and Muslims have been killing each other to preserve the right to believe in "The Imaginary" as to whom owns the betterment of this "The Imaginary".
Me personally think that Jesus was real. Just that, much of the stuff in the Bible is fiction and exaggeration of fiction, a morphing with reality.
Jesus was a "shape-shifter." I guess that's what media-speak calls it. The Bible calles it "The Transfiguration."
What we see in the Christian Bible is only a portion of the story of a very remarkable being, Jesus Christ. For Example, my Islamic friends insist that Jesus had blue eyes and blond hair. Yes, Moslems recognize Jesus as a great prophet, but not as Son of God.
The shades of skin tone, hair color, eye color, etc., well, 2,000-years on have passed, and so many groups have trampled through the Middle East, and especially Jerusalem.....we really need to stop asking what Jesus' appearance might have been, and just read the words of those of whom witnessed his history.
I believe that Jesus is what we are all evolving into. An early model of a better Human. And the sooner that the rest of us can get to that state of being, the better. It's been a long, long journey.
I'm just amazed as to the great importance this article is giving to dates and appearances. Does that really matters. Jesus is the son of God and God is real. I believe in it whether they ate on Monday or Jesus was white, black or blue. The important thing is that all these events happened and there are witnesses, if the story is not exact in the details is minimal. The reality of it, is great and amazing and thank God is still is, for the benefit of those of us that enjoy it and feel fortunate to be blessed by God and witness his miracles.
@1TruthSpeaker
You do know that "Jewish" is a reference to one's religion and not their race or nationality and that "Arabic" is a language and also not a religion or nationality, right?
Jesus was a semite that practiced Judaism. Arabs are also semites, but they are semites that practice Islam.
thou Shalt not worship any graven image.
So the answer is Yes, No One actually knows what Jesus Or God looks like except that we all were created in his own image. Therefore, He could have the look of any one of us at any given time to display that image.
Z Dizzle:
Reptilian's are known to be evil. Maybe human type.
Jesus. The Lon Chaney of the ancient world.
aliveinsd ... who cares what Muslims believe?
more people than those who care what you think Pray Hard...
Most muslims believe that Jesus will return to judge the world, and is the only prophet predicted to return.
First he walks on water. He heals cripples. Then he changes water into wine. NOW he's a shape-shifter.
What will jesus do next. Become a contestant on Jeopardy!?
So what they're saying is that Jesus was a Vorlon.... I guess it beats him being a "Pak'ma'ra" or a "Shadow"!
{Now we'll see who the geeks REALLY are... ~_o }
removed
Everything that has been written about jesus is apocryphal. Not one word contained in the NT was composed by anyone who witnessed any of the alleged miracles of jesus, in fact. The newly translated Egyptian manuscript is, therefore, no more valid or invalid than any other nonsense that has been passed down to us.
At that time and in that location, unless they were converts most Jews and all Arabs were Semitic. So unless there was an Indo-European in the wood pile...he probably looked pretty Semitic.
The story and history surrounding the Flying Spaghetti Monster is more fun to read, and easier to understand.
All hail his omnipotent noodly goodness!
Jebus inspired a whole bunch of Fan Fiction, eh? -joe
The New Adventures of Jesus: The Second Coming by Frank Stack
http://comixjoint.com/jesuscomics.html
If anyone hangs out a lot on Newsvine, I started one of those Nation things. Pastafarian Pride. Open membership. Everyone is welcome.
I saw jesus on a dogs ass on a meme on facebook which proves he is the son of God!
I wonder if thousands of Christians made a pilgrimage to worship the dogs but thole they way they did for that knot on the fence post in Australia that looked like him, or the corn flake in Ohio that bared his resemblance?
you know the funny thing is the first pictures of this jesus character weren't even made until he had supposedly been dead for 200 years, so all these morons who flock to far off lands to worship knots in fence posts and dogs butt holes that they think look like him are truly delusional.
what really amazes me is that over a billion sheeplike idiots, in the 21st century, still fall to their knees and empty their wallets in praise of someone that there is absolutely ZERO proof ever existed. If I were an evil greedy man I would become a preacher because the "faithful" are the easiest marks on the planet.
Maybe since everyone sees him as they want to see him, may have some truth to the shape shifting thingie? The Caucasians see him Caucasian Arabic, Arab anti-Semite, Semite Hebrew, Hebrew Roman, roman! Of course leave it Pilate to try to steal Gods glory with temptation! Here’s the deal scientist thought up until 1930 that Christ was a fiction! You have firsthand accounts of his presents in the New Testament you have second and third hand account of his existence in surrounding countries yet they put their educated accounts of Christ on sixth handed accounts
You don’t cast peals in front of swine until the y open their eyes and see themselves for what they really are! For even a camel can pass through the eye of a needle with his help he’s reaching for you right now unless you trample this gift into the muck, it’s not too late. The choice is yours!
Religions be crazy.
Probably because the group of 'Profits' that became amalgamated as 'Jesus' all looked different.
the shapeshifting is probably a hold over from the old Egyptian religion just like most of the jewish/christian origin stories. Look, our god can shapeshift too.
Oh, never mind.
I saw a picture of him as a black man it was pretty convincing, there was a black Santa right next to him I guess Santa was a shifter too!
I think more likely "Sumerian" religion. Which is where Abraham was from, as I recall. I believe he was supposed to have been from the city of Ur, but I'm sure someone else can give you more accurate detailed information.
Yeah and I seen a picture of the Roman God Apollo painted on a vase and a picture of this Jesus on a Roman coin minted by Constantine the 9th (first coin with such a picture) and they are nearly identical. Despite the DNA testing performed that proved the people with the highest levels of Jewish DNA are blacks living in Southern Africa I was then and there convinced that Jesus was a European.
"The discovery of the text doesn't mean these events happened, but rather that some people living at the time appear to have believed in them"
I love this line...
But from a non religious point, a shape shifting Jesus would be much more believable as a son of god because he would/could be all races.
The fact that these things happened and today people of ignorance dont believe them is much mor accurate!
TB, people of ignorance DO believe them.
Well he walked on water. If he could do that, shifting his shape shouldn't be too hard. I'll bet he could have zapped Satan with lightning from his hammer, if he had remembered to bring his hammer to the fight.
err, of course, not heard of the Transfiguration??? Of course, regarding "shift in shape", so what is the news again?
I heard he was ten feet tall and could shoot fire balls out his ass!
The apostles had a party for him the night before the crucifixion and he ate the whole cake before they could tell him there was a stripper inside it.
Looks like your mother did suck your brains out.
@radagast; Ya know what I heard? Turtles!!!!! (whoops,wrong spelling!)
No, rad. that was Sir William Wallace.
Radagast ... perfect religious statement of the evening.
Yes it was Justin! But that is the perfect analogy to what is going on here. Apocryphal or canonical, the miracles and stories of Jesus are nothing more than tall tales. The man may well have existed and may well have done many things - he obviously had a following. But walking on water? Feeding the masses with a few fish and loaves? Raising the dead and healing the sick? Myths, legends and tall tales. He was a popular cult leader in the same vane as half a dozen other supposed messiahs during those times. His story is the story of Horace from over 1000 years prior in Egypt. People knew the myths and they imposed them upon him. Gods being shape changers was popular belief in certain North African religions and it makes sense those texts would ascribe the property to him.
Of course I'm a heretic for pointing this out, but why should it matter what Jesus could or could not do? If a person is the type of christian who needs to believe in miracles in order to know that it is right to love your neighbor and to forgive others their sins - if that person needs the promise of heaven and the threat of hell to keep you from harming others, then that person is a terrible human being. No amount of faith in miracles can fix that.
Perhaps Jesus knew a skill which was actually not well known at the time. In modern day speak, we call it "swimming". And then there is the possible explanation for the food in that perhaps jesus could count, and could do some basic logistics. Who knows.
"The discovery of the text doesn't mean these events happened, but rather that some people living at the time appear to have believed in them". Just like the bible?
The fact that the world believed the earth was flat didnt make it so!!!!
Same with the big bang ( theory ). Just because some believe it doesn't make it so.
Okicize Wicasa Yata Pi
"Same with the big bang ( theory ). Just because some believe it doesn't make it so."
The major difference here is that science doesn't hold up the Big Bang Theory and say, "this is indisputably the truth as to exactly what happened beyond a shadow of a doubt!" It instead says, "this is the best explanation we have so far according to our understanding of the universe, and observable, empirical evidence, which is of course, as always, subject to change pending further investigation." That's where one of the largest disconnects between the "faithful" and the "faithless" occurs.....falsification.
"Just because some believe it doesn't make it so."
Just because some believe jesus even existed doesn't make it so.
Big chief look up the definition of Scientific theory.
Unfortunately the Bible has been translated incorrectly in many instances. The majority of it has been translated correctly, however. Also, there are many books of it missing, books that the Bible itself mentions but which were not included in what we now know as "the Bible". Early Christians didn't even have a bible! They had numerous records, epistles and apostolic writings, and shared and taught from them all. Many of these ancient texts were lost during the first three hundred years after Christ, when Christians were largely forced underground due to Jewish and Roman persecution. When Constantine consolidated his empirical power by declaring Christianity as the new church of Rome and himself as the first Pope, he held numerous councils where the official doctrines of his new "Roman Catholic Church" were debated and voted on. Scripture no longer belonged to God, but to man. It wasn't until centuries later that Catholic authorities started to "canonize" the books and letters of/about Christ that they felt to be most important. They also took great liberty in amending and changing scriptures that didn't agree with the Catholic church's doctrine/organization. This led to a widespread apostasy and a huge step backwards in society that we now know as the "dark ages".
Unfortunately, you have already lost people of small attention spans at the first comma. That is the siren song of religion, it doesn't require you to think for yourself. Some of the better religions ALLOW you to think, but that's still very different from REQUIRING you to think.
Except...
With a theory, you have assumptions which leads to experimentation. Experimentation and the results from your experimentation suggests that there is great truth in the theory one is espousing.
Let's look at the Big Bang...
Theory states that the Universe went from the incredibly miniscule to incredibly large due to a massive explosion. Matter went flying outward from this center point of creation. Tremendous amounts of heat were released.
Today, experimentation shows that the galaxies continue to expand outward (red/blue shift), and there remains a background temperature of the universe consistent with mathematical calculations predicting what those temperatures might be. Evidence currently suggests that the Big Bang theory is our best explanation for the creation of the Universe.
Belief or non-belief in the Big Bang doesn't make it so or not so. It simply is what it is. The best, factual explanation for the creation of the Universe.
Now to Genesis.
The bible explains Genesis. The bible also explains things like Noah's Arc, Adam & Eve, Garden of Eden, Jesus, Sodom & Gomorrah, and so on. Events which have happened on this planet during the time of Mankind's life here on this planet. During this same time, earth sciences have evolved: Archaeology, Anthropology, Biology, Oceanography, and so on. These earth sciences have found ancient Phoenician shipwrecks thousands of years old, but no evidence of the largest ancient ship ever claimed to be built (Noah's Arc). Ancient cities have been uncovered in the Middle East, but no cities have yet to be uncovered which proves that an ancient, godly nuke went off over the city.
Over the years other Holy relics have come forward: Shroud of Turin (discredited). Foreskin of Jesus (discredited). Wood from Jesus' Cross (discredited). And on and on. Actually, around the 9th Century AD, running a "Relic Mill" was a very profitable business, and many holy relics purported to be from Jesus' time were manufactured around this time.
So, no relics to actually prove that anything written about in the Bible was factual. What about the Bible itself. Surely this is proof enough? No, sorry. This book has been written, rewritten, edited, amended, updated, backdated, and has had entire sections removed while other sections were sanitized for modern consumption. The bible of today is a very different bible from 1,500 years ago, and bears the marks of 2,000 years of updates and revisions. Not a very reliable source for anything other than as a good moral story of how you should try to treat people.
So, Big Chief. Those who believe in the Big Bang have verifiable scientific evidence to support their beliefs. Those who believe in the Bible's version of how the universe was created have no evidence to support their beliefs, they are operating solely on this concept of "Faith", and are extremely gullible people who I'd like to sell a bridge to.
Or, more accurately, that some people wanted to try to make others believe in them.
They must have grown a lot of poppy back then.
The article has a tone of "whoa this is crazy, who could believe this stuff?" but it is is no crazier than the canonical gospels.
This actually suggests some interesting historical possibilities. Perhaps the original Christians invented the character of Jesus to deflect responsibility and avoid persecution. Any Christian could go and give a speech while claiming to be Jesus, enabling "Jesus" to spread his message at several places simultaneously. It's not a bad strategy for an up-and-coming mystery religion. When the heat go too bad, everyone could be mum about which person was the true Jesus, and then when collective punishment was on its way, they could sell out one person but leave the rest of the sect untouched and free to continue spreading the gospel. This would explain the invention of the idea of bodily assumption to heaven, and physical resurrection, as any member could "return" claiming to be Jesus and even have witnesses who would swear that person was the same person that was preaching under the name of Jesus earlier on. (Some would disagree, having seen a different "Jesus" preaching, but over time those claiming a miracle would be remembered and the rest forgotten.)
Another possibility is that there was an historical Jesus but that he and his inner circle used this technique to hide his identity. It's quite possible that the Jesus taken by the Romans in that case was actually an imposter chosen for the role, allowing the church's founder to live out his days secretly in obscurity. This would be the option for Dan Brown fans who want to see the possibility of Jesus' ancestral line living on until the modern day.
You do lead a rich fanatasy life. No historian has any doubt about the historicity of Jesus.
The first reference from a non-Christian source of Christ's existence was Josephus a Jewish historian, who wrote about it perhaps 60 years after Jesus' death. The first mention in a non christian or jewish source was Pliny in I believe 112 AD, about 80 years after Christ's death. Nobody who wrote about Jesus ever saw him. The first 4 books were written in Greek as well.
There was a Jesus of some sort, but exactly who or what he was if you look at it dispassionatley, is not clear.
Seattle area resident:good one!! Seatac.
Dumbest theory ever. "Perhaps the original Christians invented the character of Jesus to deflect responsibility and avoid persecution." First, Jesus wasn't "invented," he was a real person. Second, if you knew anything about Christian history, you'd realize how ridiculous you sound. Have you ANY idea how many martyrs willingly sacrificed their lives rather than give up the belief that Jesus was God? Did you know that ALL of the original 12 aopostles were martyrs to their faith? Dude you make me even more embarassed (if that's possible) to live in this liberal wasteland know as King County, Washington.
Curt, what is your proof that Jesus existed? That people believed in him?
Because at one time, people believed Zeus was real. Turns out they were wrong.
Scuba: Prove it!!!!!
Exactly Scuba. Christians, to date, have yet to provide any proof, besides their own religious texts, which is no proof at all.
There is no more evidence for Jesus, than there was for Zeus, Odin, Ra, etc, etc.
Humans created Christianity, as they have created every other religion.
The Creator is the reason for all the Religions of the World. God the Eternal, uses religion as our ability to thank Him for all we have. It's that simple. The God of other religions as just as real as the Jewish or Christian God. He is their creator, their provider. Christ has now allowed man the opportunity to live in heaven forever with the God eternal. It is that simple.
sweaver209 - sounds like you've got it all bundled up in a neat little package and it really is just that simple! lol
1truth ... you win the dumbest statement of the night.
efyouseekay - if only it was that simple. It is not, the stuggles of living a patient, faithful, forgiving life it's hard to do and i ask for forgiveness every night before i slip between the sheets. But i wake up the next day and start it all over again with His will be done. Those are my steps to look for peace and joy throughout my day.
Looks like my comment got collapsed. Too much truth? Christianity: Suppressing other people's views since 362 AD. I guess I got burned at the stake! LOL!
Again, no proof. Just proclamations and BS about "asking forgiveness" for me. Whatever.
Sweaver
If you really do believe in god then anything that happens is OK since he/she makes it so. That includes rape and murder. If god didn't want it we wouldn't have it.
You wanna look for joy in your fantasies, then all power to you. Whatever gets you through the day. I prefer truth.
Seattle-res, good theories. I tend to think it may have been less coordinated and less conspiritorial, though. I suspect that in the time of Jesus, you couldn't throw a stick in the air without it landing on one sort of messiah or another. Over several hundred years, I suspect the stories about multiple "Jesus", a pretty common name at the time, probably got confabulated into just one "Jesus", along with a lot of stories that were simply either made up or hyperbole. As you point out, it's easy to think of "Jesus" as a shape-shifter if there are really multiple "Jesus". And as you point out, "resurrection" is pretty easy, if only one poor sucker got hung on the cross. After all, Mary doesn't recognize "Jesus" afterwards, probably because it's a different "Jesus". Possibly Judas did the "Jesus" movement a favor by picking out one particularly troublesome (in the sense of attracting too much of the wrong attention...) messiah for the Romans and Pharisies to execute.
In a time long before photo IDs, when only word-of-mouth descriptions were available to identify people, this is a lot less far-fetched than the "miracles" attributed to "Jesus". Of course historians can find evidence that he existed, that's not the problem. The problem is, how many were there?
Following is a list of extra-biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.
I think it's important to note that EVERYONE who wants to believe anything will deny whatever is necessary for their beliefs to sit well with themselves. You see there are other historical accounts of Jesus, you just didn't want to believe that they existed, therefore they didn't. Pot, meet kettle, you both happen to be black. Christians and non-Christians alike are both putting their beliefs and feelings out there and both behave poorly towards the other, tearing each other down. What ever side of the fence you sit on, if you want someone to come around to your way of thinking, insults are not the way to go, honey folks, honey.
Flagged as myth advertisement.
So other ancients making reference to Christians is proof of what? Try again and maybe in a smaller font this time.
Fail.
Pffftt...
So you all now deny the existence of Pontius Pilate? Josephus? Pliny the Younger? You offer nothing and deny everything. You want to believe in nothing yet worship everything that only appears before you.
May God have mercy upon you, as you do not know what you do.
BrianPatronie
Brian, Brian, Brian.... No one is denying the existence of Pontius Pilate, Josephus, or Pliny the Younger; however, what these ancient historical figures are reporting, the validity of their reports, and the fact that they're reporting on a person whom they didn't personally know. This is what's being discussed.
Let me try this. The Christian Rapture occurred on April 19th, 1993. Nearly 20 years ago. Jesus had returned to Earth and was known by the name of David Koresh. Of all the religious sects in the world, the Branch Davidians under the Leadership of the newly resurrected Jesus Christ (David Koresh) were raptured on this day as each of them martyred themselves for their love of Jesus (David Koresh).
A lot of news organizations say that Jesus (David Koresh) was a mad prophet who led his flock astray, but Jesus said he was coming back, and David Koresh proclaimed himself as the Lord resurrected. Prior to their "rapture" you could have asked any member of David Koresh's inner circle if they believed he was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, they all would have said, "YES".
So... Here's my point. We know Pontius, Josephus, and Pliny lived. They suggest that a man named Jesus also lived. WHAT they DON'T say is that Jesus was the indisputable Son of God. They simply said he lived, he preached, and he died.
So, for you to say, "Aha! Proof that Jesus is Lord" because some guys said he exists? A lot of people say David Koresh existed. Some even say he was the reincarnation of Jesus (mostly it was David Koresh making that proclamation, but hey... Let's not split hairs here).
Try having less pity for us, and higher standards of proof for yourself.
you hit it on the Head!
It'a more about faith then fact! and believers need to understand why some people don't believe!
rapture happens everyday!
Just checkout how many people die daily!
Their "Rapture" the "End of the World" for them
It is interesting to consider that if the committee in the 4th century (or whenever) that put the Bible together had known about and included this text, then that is what millions of people would believe today.
and this is how any religon starts. people say lots of things and some of them stick no matter how illogical.
Baloney!! Forgeries!
Jesus was black,and he will send to hell all the religious fanatics that hate who's different
@old altar guy,Jesus was green and made of cheese.
He would look like any man who lived with men all the time and was of middle east not fair hair blue eye like the church of child molester want him to look.
Talking snake? Sure.
God smites one of his most devout followers to win a bet with the devil? No problem.
Every animal on earth fitting into a wooden boat? Definitely happened.
God sending himself to earth as his own son in order to sacrifice himself to excuse all of humanity for breaking a rule God himself made? Makes perfect sense.
Shape-shifting Jesus? What! That's totally ridiculous.
When I was little, I always wondered how Noah got the Tasmanian Devils for the ark. Or WHY he saved the two mosquitos...!
The Tasmanian Devils are what threw you?
Elephants, Rhinos, Hippos, Giraffes, Polar Bears....
Let's not forget the "only begotten son" rule that God apparently imposed on himself. (Or couldn't he find another virgin?) Of course this was after the great flood failed to rid God's creations of sinners, which was after he banished his prototypes from the Garden of Eden for having the audacity to exercise the free will he gave them--but which apparently wasn't free at all since they were punished for exercising it.
God should have first created psychology for himself, since it sounds like (to those of us with open minds), that God as Heavenly Father has some seriously messed up parenting issues.
The king of pop was a shape-shifter, black man who became white. Ha ha!
Scuba when you read that description of the appearance changes, think about the Sun (yeah, that one, in the middle of our solar system). It'll hit you like that diamond bullet in the forehead. It's all Sun myth.
"The discovery of the text doesn't mean these events happened, but rather that some people living at the time appear to have believed in them."
That applies to the whole damn book. What's the best way to make simple people believe what you want? Tell 'em GOD said it. Hell, that still works today in huge swathes of the world - including our own Deep South and Midwest.
Try reading Evidence That Demands A Verdict and The Case For Christ and see if you feel the same way. Who knows, you may be the first to actually refute the truth.
Sounds like the world's oldest fan-fic... especially the bit about Pilate offering his own son...
Blah blah blah it all means nothing, who cares?
Over 3 billion people around the world.
So what? It could be 30 billion or 300 billion. That's not an argument. Everyone used to believe the world was flat. So what?
A whole bunch of people believing something for a long time is not an argument for anything except the abject stupidity of people.
The question was "who cares" and the answer is "3 Billion people care". Curt wasn't making any comment on Christianity being true or false, but was answering reddog's question about 'who cares'.
Likewise, the whole article is about the discovery of this text, not about 'religion' itself.
Why do people care about this Egyptian text but not the one about Horace. You know Horace, the framers of the bible stole his story for the new testament. Born December 25th, star led 3 wise men to the birthplace, born of a virgin, became a child teacher by age 13, there is a missing 30 years of his history, died on the cross, resurrected 3 days later only to ascend to heaven. Now, when you figure out a way to disprove that story, you will understand how easily I disprove yours
Does this mean Jesus was an alien?
According to that guy on the History channel with the crazy hair: Yes.
Jesus was Reed Richards and Sue Storm all rolled into one. Freakin' awesome!
Reptilian!!!
Loveitloveitloveit!!!!! Sarcasm rules!!!!
It's amazing to see the comments written by all of the "naysayers". With all the things currently happening with weather, (Oh yeah, global warming, yeah, the dinasaurs were all over that! Al Gore just went laughing all the way to the bank. ) earthquakes, floods, things that only God can contol, I would think that people might recognize each of us will meet the end of our lives, even when you least expect it, maybe tomorrow. Do you really think we just had a "Great Explosion" and life happened? How do you explain your own lives, how your own body functions, the very beginning of your lives? Did you just "appear"? The pictures can't represent what Jesus looked like, we'll only get see him in the end of ours. He could have been white, black, pink, brown, yellow or a combination, it doesn't matter, he was and IS the Holy Son of God. So, have your fun, ridicule, as you may, but I truly believe that Jesus IS the Holy Son of God, and he is part of the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost, and I am much happier believing and KNOWING there is a God, and I only wish and pray that each of you will come to that realization. I DARE you to investigate rather than ridicule, it won't hurt you, it might just help you.
How do you explain what became of the other gods alluded to in Genesis 3:22? "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil." Oops, did they neglect to mention that in Sunday school because it would be too hard to explain in the the context of the one all-powerful creator myth?
Or did he also create demi-gods before he created a man to toy with by granting him free will and then punishing him for giving in to the temptations that God also created and placed before man? Your god is one psychologically sick diety.
Conservative Lady, I always say that if someone is on a path to God, which path isn't all that important. My problem is that most Christians stop at Jesus and think they've made it. I have issue with your comment about God controlling floods etc. So God made Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Sandy, killing, wounding, and devastating areas of this country? Why? Because "he" loves us? I believe in God too. But I've also played the Telephone Game. Ever played that? Van den Broek's words, "The people of that time, even if they were well-educated, did not have a critical historical attitude." So if people can't accurately pass on information to the person next to them within 6o seconds, do you think it's realistic to believe in a book that wasn't written until after hundreds of years after Jesus lived and told and retold by MEN with an agenda? Heard of the council of Nycea? It seems to me you and many others may need to investigate a bit more. MEN (and women) have invoked the names of Jesus and God to justify untold attrocities while calling themselves men of a "just and loving" God. The God of the Bible is mean and judgemental, just like many of it's followers. god loves you anyway. Because God is love, not judgement and wrath.
TankmanToo, not demi gods, but angels which yes were created before man.
The passage was talking more about the knowledge possesed by God and his angels, "to know good and evil, like them not other gods.
Very few people are actually ridiculing "Jesus". Most are ridiculing people like you.
to all of you God rejecters , what is your backup plan if your wrong?
To stimulatingsolutions.........
It doesn't matter if people are atheists, they can still go to heaven. I used to be an atheist until I read over 400 accounts of Near Death Experiences, when an athiest has an NDE and meets the "light" i.e. Jesus, God........ they are still loved and accepted by "the light" which gives them overwhelming, unconditional love. Of course, these people come back believers after such an experience.
What matters more than anything......the message NDEers are given.........is to love and care for your fellow humans and to show kindness. How you treat others matters more than even believing in God. (Once you meet him while clinically dead, you'll become a believer). God seems to understand that in this day and age of science based beliefs that not everyone is a "believer" until they meet God. I've also read about the "so-called saved evangelicals" who had a rather negative experience when they met Christ and were told to "put your money where your mouth is" and to help people instead of just talking the talk and not "walking the walk."
stimulatingsolutions gods are imaginary. There is no backup plan. LOL
Conservative Lady
I have investigated and have for many years. It is, in fact, a major hobby of mine. And let me tell you....the more I know the more ridiculous the whole thing looks. Have to go to a meeting, but just read the bible and try to make sense of it. Just try!
Thank You Conservative Lady for your well picked words.REMEMBER much of the bibles history is being proved true by scientific discovery-the city of Jericho for instance.It was believed to be a fable until they found its ruins-walls fell OUT,Grain holders full !! I have no doubts but for you,think of it this way. If Christians are wrong they get the same thing as you.If they're right,an eternity in heaven is a reward worth believing in for a max of 120 years-a lifetime. In the end we'll all know the truth! I like to believe a lot more people will be there than what some hardliners believe. But again,in the end we'll all know the truth.
Thinking back to Jesus on the road to Emmaus after his Resurrection and how the people he encountered - his own followers - did not recognize him makes that part about Jesus changing his appearance pretty interesting! They say you can find God in other people's faces and this lends credence to that.
They didn't recognize him because he was the first actual zombie in recorded literature.
"The discovery of the text doesn't mean these events happened, but rather that some people living at the time appear to have believed in them" A quote from the article above which is how the bible should be treated......instead of being used for hatred towards others.